Curse

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Are you objected to there being PvP stuff in the HoM because you can't get it, or because of something else?

No of course not. I admit fully that I don't have a PvP title, thus I miss out on that one point in my HoM for one. I am close to R1 Zaishen, but I got that from using Keys. If people are rewarded for PvP, then more power to them for it. It won't affect my game in any way if someone has more points than me. Whether through PvP or PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimson.cosmos

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this. PvP players don't get “everything for free”. I would argue that it's just about the same amount of work doing just the PvP side of the game to completion as it is doing the PvE side. You need to unlock everything in PvP before it becomes available.

As well, I'd have to disagree with you there too. It is much easier to unlock those things via PvP than it is PvE. PvP players can just buy what they want with faction. PvE on the other hand, we have to get those mods from a drop. It is not easy for PvE players to get perfect mods every time, where is PvP players can just buy the mod.

As well, PvP players already start at level 20, have max armor, and have a max weapon. Even Rangers are given an automatic level 20 pet. PvE players on the other hand, have to pay for all of that armor, pay for a max weapon, have to do tons of quests and missions to even get to level 20, and they have to level a pet themselves.

With skills, it costs PvP players Faction. Faction that doesn't change in prices the more you buy. And as long as PvP players have all campaigns, it is a one stop shop. PvE on the other hand, has to complete several areas of the game to get access to all of these skills. As well, PvE players have to spend more and more money for the more skills they get. It is not a flat rate like it is for PvP. And PvE has to actually go out and find the boss that has their elite skills and capture it. Where PvP just buys it from the same person they buy their normal skills. Not to mention, PvE has to pay for a capture signet, AND still go out and clear areas after areas to get to a boss that has the skill they want.

Let's also not forget, that a PvP player can go to the ingame store and buy the PvP Unlock Packs and PvP Skill Unlock Packs. So for a few bucks, a PvP player doesn't have to unlock anything. They don't have that for PvE. PvE players still have to work for everything.

Personally, I think PvE has it a bit tougher than PvP when it comes to this.

Artisan Archer · Nov 16, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Personally, I think PvE has it a bit tougher than PvP when it comes to this.

It's not tougher, it just takes more time.

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

It's not tougher, it just takes more time.

Doesn't...... that mean the same thing?

More time = more work = tougher.

drkn · Nov 16, 2010, 01:35 PM // 13:35

I think it takes more time to max Glad/Hero than to get GWAMM, not to even mention Champ.
I'd rather see PvP statues in HoM more favored. The first PvP statue generates three points and counts as one statue towards the 40 statues max, while each subsequent PvP statue counts as 3-5 statues. There's really nothing more to do, since HoM is purely PvE-based, but a change like this would acknowledge the GW1 PvP somehow AND wouldn't annoy those who already got their statues and GW2 titles via PvEing.
As for GW2 rewards for PvPers, we don't know how will PvP there work for sure, we don't have 100% and accurate data - so it's hard to say if it's even possible and viable to get a GW2 reward within its PvP standpoint. On the other hand, despite not having anything strictly PvP in GW2, one will be always able to show off his PvP statues via link to his HoM calculator.

Swahnee · Nov 16, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Personally, I think PvE has it a bit tougher than PvP when it comes to this.

Yes, if you are talking about obtaining gear.

However, you have to remember that in PvE after you have completed the missions/quests/dungeons and obtained the gear you want, the game is finished (well, there are only titles left, or rolling new chars, but in both cases you have just to repeat everything you already did). In PvP instead, after you have obtained the gear you want, the game starts.

The difficulty in PvE is related to completing missions and obtaining gear, while the difficulty in PvP is related to winning against other human players, so i wouldn't make quick comparisons between the two, because they are entirely different things imho. Or at least, you should compare doing missions/obtaining gear in PvE, with reaching a certain goal in PvP, for example reaching some title rank, for what it matters, and not with obtaining gear in PvP, which isn't a central part of the game, as it is in PvE.

That said, i've found from my personal experience that just learning to win on a (more or less) regular basis in RA (and doing it) took way more work and skill than learning how to vanquish every zone and how to do every dungeon (and doing it)...read: i've never been able to win RA battles while watching wiki

. So, if we are talking about what's more difficult and what requires more work, i have no doubt.

Does this mean that PvP achievements deserve more HoM points and more GW2 rewards? No, because i fully agree with the other poster who said that playing and winning are the only rewards for playing and winning (sorry, but yesterday my volleyball team scored a mighty 3-0 (25-15, 25-11, 25-16), so i'm in that mood :P).

The only "material" PvP reward i would like would be my character's name or my team's name (teams doesn't exist in GW, i know

) being displayed on a ladder on the official GW site. Wait, but this would mean having tournaments and ladders for every PvP format instead of meaningless titles...yes, but we aren't here talking about it.

Kronk_Shaan · Nov 16, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I actually found the two areas (PVP and PVE) to be about the same challenge. Granted, it's been at least a year since I did PVP, but even with the few hundred hours I spent doing RA and GVG (more RA than GVG - which it's been like 4 years since I did it), I never had a problem winning multiple matches in a row. No sync, just random pug with random skills...of course, that may be a little off as my groups always had a monk, as it's my primary toon.

I always preferred the lore of the game and questing to be more fun (more of a roleplay feel to it). I never really got that into PVP because after playing Dark Age of Camelot, the small group conflicts without siege gear and keeps to defend, as well as being stuck in a controlled space (map) just didn't seem competitive or exciting.

I would think suggesting something like adding a category, without changing the way things are or point requirements so 18 points is max in the Honor monument, but there are 23 points in categories available in it), like if you complete x PVP titles you get y points, might be an idea. So 1 PVP title is 3 points, but 3 PVP titles is an additional 5 or something might placate people and not change anyone who is already at 50, or changing the way the PVE community gets its points. It would also help people who have only done PVP the entire time, get to 50 points (or at least the 18 in Honor) faster.

gremlin · Nov 16, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Doesn't...... that mean the same thing?

More time = more work = tougher.

Nope it doesn't performing an easy task for hours may be tiring but not difficult performing the same task underwater blindfolded and tied up could well be considered difficult.

So no they are not the same

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Yes, if you are talking about obtaining gear.

But I'm not talking just about gear. In the rest of my post, I mention skills as well.

With PvP, you can just hit the ingame store and buy everything you need with real life cash. All your skills unlocked, all areas, all mods, etc etc. Let's also remember, that when purchasing PvP skills, you go to one NPC who has all the skills in all campaigns. You pay a flat fee for every skill. As well, that same NPC sells you all Elite Skills from all campaigns. You pay a flat fee for those as well.

With PvE on the other hand, you have to work for all those skills, areas, mods, etc. There is no quick option in the ingame store to unlock all that for you like PvP has. As well, PvE you have to do missions after missions to get to new areas that have new skills available for you. And the price for skills for PvE players increases for each skill they buy. With Elite skills, PvE players have to pay for a Capture Signet, and then go through missions and areas to kill foes to reach a boss that has the elite skill they want. They can't just buy it like you can in PvP.

So imo, PvE does have it harder when it comes to skills.

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 16, 2010, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

So imo, PvE does have it harder when it comes to skills.

lol, just because you can quickly acquire all the skills in PvP doesn't make it any easier. Go and try to obtain a single pvp title and tell me how easy you think it is

gremlin · Nov 16, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I am guessing that pvp is in fact far harder than pve.

pve may well take more time but ultimately the fights are easier you always know the enemies skills and tactics before you begin the fight.
You have pve skills and consumables.

pvp you are up against other players which in effect means you don't know their skills tactics or level.

Level as in just how good they are, therefore all else being equal I submit pvp is harder.

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

lol, just because you can quickly acquire all the skills in PvP doesn't make it any easier. Go and try to obtain a single pvp title and tell me how easy you think it is

Half of the PvP population obtained PvP titles by paying for them. They would go afk and have their team carry them. So obtaining a PvP title, isn't as prestige as one would think it is. Plus, I'm almost already R1 Zaishen. Yet another PvP title that is easy to obtain with cash just like the others.

And if you want to talk titles, then sure. Award PvP players a title in GW2 for getting a bunch of maxed PvP titles. Because in PvE, for farming all the titles you are rewarded a title. So award them the same then for farming titles. Give them some special PvP title for having all the PvP titles in GW1. GWAMM get to keep GWAMM in GW2, so don't see any reason why someone who farms PvP titles, can't have a special title as well in GW2.

What I am talking about is, that it is easier to obtain everything in PvP, than it is in PvE. It is more difficult to get all those enhancements in PvE, than PvP. Titles are optional. They won't make you better or more skilled. The stuff that actually makes you a better player, is easier to obtain in PvP than in PvE, thus the reason why I said it is tougher for PvE players than it is for PvP players.

crimson.cosmos · Nov 16, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Thanks for the replies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kronk_Shaan

I would think suggesting something like adding a category, without changing the way things are or point requirements so 18 points is max in the Honor monument, but there are 23 points in categories available in it), like if you complete x PVP titles you get y points, might be an idea. So 1 PVP title is 3 points, but 3 PVP titles is an additional 5 or something might placate people and not change anyone who is already at 50, or changing the way the PVE community gets its points. It would also help people who have only done PVP the entire time, get to 50 points (or at least the 18 in Honor) faster.

I like the idea, up to a point. The way I see it, there should be several intermediary steps for each title / amount of Balthazar faction. That way someone taking the PvP route wouldn't have to completely fill a title track in order to see any sort of ROI.

Now, I realise that PvE rewards come from maxed titles, but since there are so many of them the PvP side could do with some splitting.

Also, could we please stay on topic? This PvP/PvE is harder than PvE/PvP discussion isn't really going anywhere.

Cheers!

cc

ErrantVenture · Nov 16, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

As an avid PvPer and member of the high-end GvG community, I can safely say that a PvP HoM is a bad idea that won't get implemented.

GW2 is going to be a PvE game. PvP is going to be an afterthough, and shitty compared to the PvE content. Izzy has even said in interviews that they're going to have a League Of Legends style GvG system.

*lemming* · Nov 16, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Half of the PvP population obtained PvP titles by paying for them. They would go afk and have their team carry them. So obtaining a PvP title, isn't as prestige as one would think it is.

Stop making garbage up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Plus, I'm almost already R1 Zaishen. Yet another PvP title that is easy to obtain with cash just like the others.

If you've read the relevant threads in Sardelac, you'd know that only PvEers think that Zaishen is a PvP title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

And if you want to talk titles, then sure. Award PvP players a title in GW2 for getting a bunch of maxed PvP titles. Because in PvE, for farming all the titles you are rewarded a title. So award them the same then for farming titles. Give them some special PvP title for having all the PvP titles in GW1. GWAMM get to keep GWAMM in GW2, so don't see any reason why someone who farms PvP titles, can't have a special title as well in GW2.

PvP titles aren't designed to be maxed, fyi.

Of course, that's incidental to the fact that PvP titles really don't mean anything besides time spent grinding. What a hypothetical PvP HoM really should be carrying over are achievements that have something to do with performance. Things like top 8/4/2/1 in a monthly AT, 50/100/250/500/750/1000 fame earned in one HA run, x million Balthazar faction earned in HA/TA/GvG/HB, 25/50/100/250 consecutive wins in TA, etc. would actually reflect on accomplishments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

What I am talking about is, that it is easier to obtain everything in PvP, than it is in PvE. It is more difficult to get all those enhancements in PvE, than PvP. Titles are optional. They won't make you better or more skilled. The stuff that actually makes you a better player, is easier to obtain in PvP than in PvP, thus the reason why I said it is tougher for PvE players than it is for PvP players.

Being good at PvP is what makes you a better player, not your items or unlocks.

tldr: stop posting if you don't understand what's going on.

crimson.cosmos · Nov 16, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

As an avid PvPer and member of the high-end GvG community, I can safely say that a PvP HoM is a bad idea that won't get implemented.

GW2 is going to be a PvE game. PvP is going to be an afterthough, and shitty compared to the PvE content. Izzy has even said in interviews that they're going to have a League Of Legends style GvG system.

I think that's jumping the gun a bit. What he said is that he's looking at games such as League of Legends and Team Fortress in regards to team splits. Actually, in that same interview he compared the GW2 GvG with soccer - as in easy to pick up and observe, but with enough tactical depth to allow for a "professional" level of play.

Also, quoting from an older interview:

Quote:

GW1 has a legacy of having strong PvP and competition, and we’re going to great lengths to make GW2 the best PvP MMO on the market by leaps and bounds.

I think we can safely assume that PvP isn't going to be an afterthought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Of course, that's incidental to the fact that PvP titles really don't mean anything besides time spent grinding. What a hypothetical PvP HoM really should be carrying over are achievements that have something to do with performance. Things like top 8/4/2/1 in a monthly AT, 50/100/250/500/750/1000 fame earned in one HA run, x million Balthazar faction earned in HA/TA/GvG/HB, 25/50/100/250 consecutive wins in TA, etc. would actually reflect on accomplishments.

I quite like this idea. My concern is that the number of people getting those rewards would be quite small. Not to mention the fact that it's quite late to start keeping track of these achievements. It would only work from the point its implemented onwards so a lot of what's done would remain by-gone.

Any thoughts on the rewards?

cc

Swahnee · Nov 16, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

But I'm not talking just about gear. In the rest of my post, I mention skills as well.

With PvP, you can just hit the ingame store and buy everything you need with real life cash. All your skills unlocked, all areas, all mods, etc etc. Let's also remember, that when purchasing PvP skills, you go to one NPC who has all the skills in all campaigns. You pay a flat fee for every skill. As well, that same NPC sells you all Elite Skills from all campaigns. You pay a flat fee for those as well.

With PvE on the other hand, you have to work for all those skills, areas, mods, etc. There is no quick option in the ingame store to unlock all that for you like PvP has. As well, PvE you have to do missions after missions to get to new areas that have new skills available for you. And the price for skills for PvE players increases for each skill they buy. With Elite skills, PvE players have to pay for a Capture Signet, and then go through missions and areas to kill foes to reach a boss that has the elite skill they want. They can't just buy it like you can in PvP.

So imo, PvE does have it harder when it comes to skills.

Sorry, but you missed my point. It's likely that i haven't been clear enough though. However, what i was saying is that in PvE obtaining gear and skills is part of the game, while in PvP it isn't. The game in PvP consists in beating human opponents, and the first and most important thing you need to do this isn't something you can buy (neither with in-game cash, nor with rl-cash): it's experience and skill (meaning your way of playing, not the actual GW skills).

SpyderArachnid · Nov 16, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Stop making garbage up.

Seems you haven't been around long enough to experience the tons of players that buy their way through arenas to get their titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

If you've read the relevant threads in Sardelac, you'd know that only PvEers think that Zaishen is a PvP title.

Well seeing as Anet considers this title a PvP title, thus it counting as a PvP title in the HoM, it is safe to assume PvEers are not the only players that consider this a PvP title. Personally, I don't think it should be a PvP title. It is the only PvP title that you can buy without even doing anything related to PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

PvP titles aren't designed to be maxed, fyi.

Of course, that's incidental to the fact that PvP titles really don't mean anything besides time spent grinding. What a hypothetical PvP HoM really should be carrying over are achievements that have something to do with performance. Things like top 8/4/2/1 in a monthly AT, 50/100/250/500/750/1000 fame earned in one HA run, x million Balthazar faction earned in HA/TA/GvG/HB, 25/50/100/250 consecutive wins in TA, etc. would actually reflect on accomplishments.

This is a great idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Being good at PvP is what makes you a better player, not your items or unlocks.

tldr: stop posting if you don't understand what's going on.

Yes, being a skilled player is what makes you good at PvP. But not having those skills/elite skills, proper modifications on your weapons, proper runes, etc, will hinder you greatly. You still need skills and such to be any good. Otherwise you run around with no skills and basic weapons and unruned gear. I'm pretty sure even the most skilled PvPer must have specific skills to be any good. Otherwise they would just run around mindlessly swinging their weapon.

Back OT: You have good ideas on how PvP players should be rewarded. Instead of giving rewards based off titles, give rewards based off their progress and placement in tournaments.

I Jonas I · Nov 17, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Seems you haven't been around long enough to experience the tons of players that buy their way through arenas to get their titles.

...you do know who Lemming is, right?

helloeveryone · Nov 17, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

imo, if pvp-er is given a special title such as "i got tiga emote" in gw2 for recognition, based on the obnoxious culture of pvp-er in gw, it would render gw2 empty without players within 5 months. i guess Anet knows how gw1 pvper are, from a business point of view, no way they are going to let those little self-disillusioned group destroy the game they tried so hard to build

just my thoughts, not bashing the pvper...

*lemming* · Nov 17, 2010, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

Seems you haven't been around long enough to experience the tons of players that buy their way through arenas to get their titles.

I know what's going on. Most of those people are, surprisingly enough, PvEers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by helloeveryone

imo, if pvp-er is given a special title such as "i got tiga emote" in gw2 for recognition, based on the obnoxious culture of pvp-er in gw, it would render gw2 empty without players within 5 months. i guess Anet knows how gw1 pvper are, from a business point of view, no way they are going to let those little self-disillusioned group destroy the game they tried so hard to build

just my thoughts, not bashing the pvper...

You're still wrong.